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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey folks, I just recently invested in a power commander (fuel controller) because I am a cool kid and do not like the thought of my motorcycle running remotely lean, my question I am posing to the forum is this, should I choose a predone map that does not fit my bike or should I attempt to make one myself. My thought is what is the worst I can do to my motorcycle. Make it run too rich? Anyone got any advice or first hand experience? I am just 17 and do not have the money for a dyno tune yet so I am just looking for something that is going to keep my engine running normally and I am not looking for something to boost my hp to 10000% its original. I do definitely need a new map due to the fact that I get decel after burn which is not a terrible thing but I do not feel like dropping 500 bucks on a broken exhaust valve due to increased exhaust pressure from detonation. also as a side note the only mod installed is the tip and im already getting signs showing that im more lean than before.

if yall are wondering about the mods they are a coffman "slip on" and a nice and shiny air filter, the bike is a 2014 cb500f (gotta love that under 25 insurance)
 

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Hey Pauly (btw the phone's typo introducer wanted to correct your name to Pauline ;-)
Welcome to the forums.

In fact the oem map is a tad rich at higher loads/rpms, so nothing to worry.

The decel crackle and pop is caused by the PAIR valve, which is an environmental device helping to burn unburned fuel in the exhaust by adding extra fresh air from the air filter - so nothing to worry about it is not caused by a lean condition.

With the PFC, you will not be able to modify the closed loop section of the fuel map, and there is no point to do so. When operating closed loop, ECM keeps fueling around 14.7 or Lambda 1 (and in this area also corrects for any additional bolt-on) which is a tad leaner than best performance, but definitely not lean by any chance.

There's no way that you'll be able to make a good map by seat of the pants, the best is that you use an existing map made for a similar setup. Too rich is less of a problem than too lean, but excessive carbon buildup (as a result of too rich condition) is not really good for the engine either. Abrupt change from Stoich (again this is another fancy name for Lambda 1 AF mixture) in closed loop to a rich mixture in open loop will also have a toll on rideability.
If you want real usable performance, I suggest to find a good dyno shop and save up for a tune - especially if you plan to keep the bike longer term.
Otherwise just enjoy the bike and stay outta trouble. ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hey Pauly (btw the phone's typo introducer wanted to correct your name to Pauline ;-)
Welcome to the forums.

In fact the oem map is a tad rich at higher loads/rpms, so nothing to worry.

The decel crackle and pop is caused by the PAIR valve, which is an environmental device helping to burn unburned fuel in the exhaust by adding extra fresh air from the air filter - so nothing to worry about it is not caused by a lean condition.

With the PFC, you will not be able to modify the closed loop section of the fuel map, and there is no point to do so. When operating closed loop, ECM keeps fueling around 14.7 or Lambda 1 (and in this area also corrects for any additional bolt-on) which is a tad leaner than best performance, but definitely not lean by any chance.

There's no way that you'll be able to make a good map by seat of the pants, the best is that you use an existing map made for a similar setup. Too rich is less of a problem than too lean, but excessive carbon buildup (as a result of too rich condition) is not really good for the engine either. Abrupt change from Stoich (again this is another fancy name for Lambda 1 AF mixture) in closed loop to a rich mixture in open loop will also have a toll on rideability.
If you want real usable performance, I suggest to find a good dyno shop and save up for a tune - especially if you plan to keep the bike longer term.
Otherwise just enjoy the bike and stay outta trouble. ;-)
see id love to have it tuned but thats a lot of money and im still paying the bike off through my parents, i see what your saying with similar setup maps but those maps are like full systems and a stock air filter when i only have a "slip on" and a k&n, what i intended to do was maybe raise all of my sections (low, mid, high) 10% richer and hope that i dont burn my engine up by not making it rich enough. though do you think i should try a full system and a stock air filter map? could it be similar to the fuel changes induced by a aftermarket air filter and slip on? im not looking for extreme performance in fact i could care less if i lose a horsepower or two or lose some MPGs, im just looking to keep my motorcycle running for years to come with the parts im putting on it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey Pauly (btw the phone's typo introducer wanted to correct your name to Pauline ;-)
Welcome to the forums.

In fact the oem map is a tad rich at higher loads/rpms, so nothing to worry.

The decel crackle and pop is caused by the PAIR valve, which is an environmental device helping to burn unburned fuel in the exhaust by adding extra fresh air from the air filter - so nothing to worry about it is not caused by a lean condition.

With the PFC, you will not be able to modify the closed loop section of the fuel map, and there is no point to do so. When operating closed loop, ECM keeps fueling around 14.7 or Lambda 1 (and in this area also corrects for any additional bolt-on) which is a tad leaner than best performance, but definitely not lean by any chance.

There's no way that you'll be able to make a good map by seat of the pants, the best is that you use an existing map made for a similar setup. Too rich is less of a problem than too lean, but excessive carbon buildup (as a result of too rich condition) is not really good for the engine either. Abrupt change from Stoich (again this is another fancy name for Lambda 1 AF mixture) in closed loop to a rich mixture in open loop will also have a toll on rideability.
If you want real usable performance, I suggest to find a good dyno shop and save up for a tune - especially if you plan to keep the bike longer term.
Otherwise just enjoy the bike and stay outta trouble. ;-)
i should probably clarify, the only maps available for the 500 are full systems with stock air filters and a few slip ons with stock AFs... should i try to edit one of the slip on with stocks AFs to see if i can get something closer to what i need?
 

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Hey Pauly...!
congratulation on your aquirement and welcome to the forum.

with much reference to Oyabun's post,
I would like to summarise a few points;
1 we reckon you're a cool kid.
2 the 500s is a good daily commuter bike.
3 you can add parts and accessories as you like.
4 fuelling with stock mapping is, well, almost perfect.

and as for advise from first hand experience,
"unless you're doing serious racing, leave the fuelling stock aka you don't need Power Commader."
 

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Indeed as Blackburn said, you're officially given re cool kid status on board. If I'd have such a bike at 17 as the 500R, I'd be happy as... Well, extremely happy beyond words for sure.

I can relate to your financial status, and also understand that you want to make sure that you are not harming your new ride. Once again. The stock fueling is rather on the rich side during WOT and auto regukated in closed loop, so I would not be concerned about fueling safety. I know many people who are running the coffman wihout any alteration to the fuel mapping and they have no issues whatsoever with the bike.

With all respect I strongly suggest against messing around with fueling settings until you have a _much_ better understanding and some kind of measurement possibility of engine operation parameters.

For your information, on our bikes it is not really the air filter itself, but the airbox inlet is the most restricting on the intake side , so your spanking new air filter will not significantly alter your fueling.

I agree with @blackburn, the stock fueling is almost perfect and made to cope with minor changes - so don't mess with it unless it is really necessary.

If anything, use the Leo Vince slip-on map with stock Air filter as it is the setup what is the closest to yours (rhe coffman being a shorter fairly open exhaust similar to the Leo Vince GP corsa) . I'm pretty sure you can safely use it until you collect the money to get the bike to set up on a dyno.

Hope it helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Indeed as Blackburn said, you're officially given re cool kid status on board. If I'd have such a bike at 17 as the 500R, I'd be happy as... Well, extremely happy beyond words for sure.

I can relate to your financial status, and also understand that you want to make sure that you are not harming your new ride. Once again. The stock fueling is rather on the rich side during WOT and auto regukated in closed loop, so I would not be concerned about fueling safety. I know many people who are running the coffman wihout any alteration to the fuel mapping and they have no issues whatsoever with the bike.

With all respect I strongly suggest against messing around with fueling settings until you have a _much_ better understanding and some kind of measurement possibility of engine operation parameters.

For your information, on our bikes it is not really the air filter itself, but the airbox inlet is the most restricting on the intake side , so your spanking new air filter will not significantly alter your fueling.

I agree with @blackburn, the stock fueling is almost perfect and made to cope with minor changes - so don't mess with it unless it is really necessary.

If anything, use the Leo Vince slip-on map with stock Air filter as it is the setup what is the closest to yours (rhe coffman being a shorter fairly open exhaust similar to the Leo Vince GP corsa) . I'm pretty sure you can safely use it until you collect the money to get the bike to set up on a dyno.

Hope it helps.
im sorry to blow everyone off but this is an answer i really like. idk man i understand the fueling can be ok and stuff but i have such a fear of damaging the bike because insurance will not help me and i bought it new so im kinda in a bad position if something happens to it, though i am DEFINITELY going to do what you just said. i still just cant believe the bike runs fairly rich at high rpms though, it just feels like it already runs lean especially since it was made as like a european under 50hp bike.
 

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cbr500 power, torque and afr chart courtesy of Motomaxx...
Please allow me a soight coreection. The chart you've linked is not of a stock CBR500, but in fact courtesy of @tothezenith, and shows his experiment with the Motomaxx velocity stacks. One can see that the bike makes about 55rwhp, compared to the oem 42-43, and also the rev limit is 9500 instead of the stock. Also AFR is very steady at max power which is not a trait of the stock fueling, but a very well set up bike..

Let me put here a dyno and afr chart of a stock bike instead - shared by Bazzaz. One can clearly see, that stock fueling is rather rich at higher revs, which gets corrected by the fueling module. This is why I say that a slipon and filter is perfecty safe ro run even on stock fueling
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
man fellas thanks for posting these graphs, i still cant believe the bike runs fairly rich at higher rpms. though to stay safe i think i will just make the low a bit richer and the mid just a TAD richer and leave the high end as it because it does not look too bad.
 

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You see, there's a saying that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I understand that most probably at 17 I would not take advise even from god almighty, but I try to explain once again.

Tuning engines by belief (especially with limited experience and knowledge) is good way to just simply frack up something.

More is not allways the best. If once you'll learn to read afr charts, you'll see on the stock map that below 6.000 rpm it is just perfect in its stock form, and above that it gets bog rich so much that taking off fuel results in (even if marginally) more power.

In your exhaust the biggest restriction is the cat, what does not change with the slipon exhaust. Anything beyond the cat will be lean, because by design it is burning any residual fuel in the exhaust.

For your understanding. On a naturally aspirated engine between 16:1 and 15:1 afr is considered safe, and this is gives the best economy during cruise, but will start pinging under load. 15:1 is already a very safe afr albeit not good for power. 14.7 is what all cars and motorcycles run in closed loop as that results in least emissions. There are no two identical engines, but generally best power can be achieved between 13.5 and 12.8 anything above starts to foul plugs and create serious carbon deposit. It is not a big issue on a racebike which is rebuilt every second race or at worst every season, but not something you want to run on the street.

So _anything above 15:1 and below 12.8 is safe on your engine which is how Honda has designed it. It also has a lambda sensor to correct the basic fueling (to 14.7 that is) and compensate for whatever you can hang on it.

How would you know how much fuel you're adding, and where is actually too much? Tothezenith who has all bells and whistles (full exhaust sustem, actermarket cams, polished intake and so) on his bike got tuned it on the dyno and actually had to remove fuel at big parts of the maps to get to best power.

We're really trying to pamper you here, but I put it very straight. If tou want to enjoy the bike you've just got for long, and the only thing you know about bikes and tuning that "I don't believe it is not running lean" and you consider running 12:1 as not looking too bad" I seriously suggest that you don't touch fueling at all - or load the Leo vince slip-on map at best.
Imma out. *Drops the mike*
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You see, there's a saying that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I understand that most probably at 17 I would not take advise even from god almighty, but I try to explain once again.

Tuning engines by belief (especially with limited experience and knowledge) is good way to just simply frack up something.

More is not allways the best. If once you'll learn to read afr charts, you'll see on the stock map that below 6.000 rpm it is just perfect in its stock form, and above that it gets bog rich so much that taking off fuel results in (even if marginally) more power.

In your exhaust the biggest restriction is the cat, what does not change with the slipon exhaust. Anything beyond the cat will be lean, because by design it is burning any residual fuel in the exhaust.

For your understanding. On a naturally aspirated engine between 16:1 and 15:1 afr is considered safe, and this is gives the best economy during cruise, but will start pinging under load. 15:1 is already a very safe afr albeit not good for power. 14.7 is what all cars and motorcycles run in closed loop as that results in least emissions. There are no two identical engines, but generally best power can be achieved between 13.5 and 12.8 anything above starts to foul plugs and create serious carbon deposit. It is not a big issue on a racebike which is rebuilt every second race or at worst every season, but not something you want to run on the street.

So _anything above 15:1 and below 12.8 is safe on your engine which is how Honda has designed it. It also has a lambda sensor to correct the basic fueling (to 14.7 that is) and compensate for whatever you can hang on it.

How would you know how much fuel you're adding, and where is actually too much? Tothezenith who has all bells and whistles (full exhaust sustem, actermarket cams, polished intake and so) on his bike got tuned it on the dyno and actually had to remove fuel at big parts of the maps to get to best power.

We're really trying to pamper you here, but I put it very straight. If tou want to enjoy the bike you've just got for long, and the only thing you know about bikes and tuning that "I don't believe it is not running lean" and you consider running 12:1 as not looking too bad" I seriously suggest that you don't touch fueling at all - or load the Leo vince slip-on map at best.
Imma out. *Drops the mike*
alright man im sorry if i frustrated you or anything i just wanted some confirmation about it all, i havent even put the PCFC on yet but i am not going to return it, i am going to keep it just in case i do a full exhaust system or something crazy like that in the future
 

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Don't mean to hijack the thread here, but the difference in the two dyno results is pretty shocking. It appears the motomaxx stacks gained less than 1hp, with stock stacks resulting in 54hp. The shock comes in with the other 500 dynode at 38hp. How can there be THAT MUCH variation??? Is that the result of mandated restrictions? Or is it that a defective engine? The result would be a crippled engine.
 

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@cb500ariz there is not that much variation in stock engine, please read carefully what @Oyabun wrote, it's @tothezenith 's highly modified bike, the velocity stacks make little to no change, it had a modified airbox, full system, tune, polished and ported throttle bodies and valves, but most importantly a different cam profile (that's where the restriction is on these engines) there is a whole thread about the mods here https://www.cbr500riders.com/forum/...ides/58249-cbr500r-primmed-ver-2-mod-max.html
 

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The shock comes in with the other 500 dynode at 38hp. How can there be THAT MUCH variation??? Is that the result of mandated restrictions? Or is it that a defective engine? The result would be a crippled engine.
Stock CBR500s usually dyno around 41-43 depending on variables, but there are no two identical dynos. Some are reading lower some higher. This 38hp run is not corrected at all, but contains all variables (temperatire, air pressure, humidity etc).
It does not worth to compare absolute figures of different bikes on different dynos, the main importance is to look for the before-after values of the same bike on the same dyno for comparison.
Also as @_Yamato points out, Tothezenith's bike is highly modified - no point to compare it to a stock bike. One small correction though - the head and valves has not been touched on that engine.
 
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