[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hi all,

Firstly I'm new to both motorcycle engines and wiring so please bear with me.

I'm working on a custom trike build and using a 2014 CBR500R engine. When buying the engine I was told it was a running engine with the starter motor still attached, I bought a wiring loom, CDI, regulator, coils, and battery for the engine as well as a new aftermarket key switch and engine start button. I worked through the wiring loom and found all the connections to the engine and everything is plugged in and connected. I have bypassed the clutch switch and the side stand switch as I don't need the side stand as its a trike and the chain isn't hooked up so not worried about starting it in gear and it running away from me.

checked all connectors, ground the loom to the frame and connected the battery, turned the key, pressed the button and nothing happened. I wanted to ask if there is something I'm missing or where a good place to start with regards to figuring out if I'm getting power to where I should be?

I haven't bought anything else such as the switched that go on the handlebars etc as I'm planning on running lights, horn, etc on a separate circuit.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

 

[Unclear_Motives]

Let me first say that I'm no expert...I'm just trying to help troubleshoot this.

I don't see any mention of a cluster. When you turn the key, do you get any lights, or activity on a gauge cluster?

I remember once having an issue getting my bike to start because it wouldn't go into neutral. I don't recall if the kickstand was up or down at the time. I know you haven't got it all together with chain and wheels yet...but can you verify if it's in neutral?

I see that you mention having the start button...but what about the engine cut-off switch? If you don't have it...is there a chance that the circuit is currently in 'cut off' condition, and preventing the start?

 

[vt500]

There is an engine kill switch on the right handlebar switch pod. Need a switch wired to that or bypass it.
I don't think it stops cranking but it does kill the ignition.

The start button simply tells the engine ECU you want the engine to start, as you have probably figured out.

I understand that in some countries these bikes have a coded ignition key and their ECU expects that.
I have an ordinary key in my USA 2014 model.
If you post the bike's country others can help.

There is a main fuse and a block of fuses on these bikes.
If you wired those parts in, the main fuse or fuse for the ECU could be blown.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hi both,

Thanks for the help. @Unclear_Motives i havnt wired any cluster up, i located the wires the would go to the start button and added an after market switch to them.

@vt500 I didnt think of the engine cut off switch so will bypass that and see what happens. I dont have much info on the engine however as it was taken from a bike in the UK i think its fairly safe to say that it is a UK engine.

Just hope that it doesnt have a coded ignition!

Thanks

 

[someone]

I think H.I.S.S. is standard everywhere except north America. And you cannot reprogram the E.C.U. without a coded key, you need to replace the unit.

The cheaper option, and the only way to bypass it completely, is to buy a unit (and loom) for a north American model.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hi,

When you mentioned the HIS system i remembered that the CDI i bought was the US version and doesnt have the immobiliser H.I.S.S system so do you think it will just be the kill switch?

 

[vt500]

Once I had a mechanic accidentally push the kill switch to ON when rolling the bike out of the shop - I couldn't start it. I don't remember clearly if the bike would crank or not.

Bypass the kill switch (probably shorting the wires together) and try it. Hopefully it cranks and starts.
note: there are also wires for the start button, front brake actuation switch and hazard light switch in the same right handlebar harness.

If it won't crank, are you sure you identified the start switch wires correctly?
Is the ecu fully seated in its connector? re-seat it with power off!
The ecu must control a start relay to switch the high current to the starter - is the relay wired up and receiving 12v from the battery?

If everything is correct (and the fuel lines are full of gas), these bikes start within a second of pressing the start button.

 

[someone]

There is no cranking with the kill switch, the starter button literally does nothing.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hey guys, That would make sense that the cut off switch needs to be there but struggling wiring it. I have attached the wiring diagram (the first page), the start and stop switch is top left. any help with the wiring would be very helpful. Thanks

 

[tothezenith]

@CBR TRIKE BUILDER just a little tip with terminology, our bikes are EFI therefore don't have a CDI unit (Capacitive Discharge Ignition); that black thing your referring to is the ECM.
As for the switches needed to get it started, as mentioned already is sidestand switch, kill switch, but also clutch/neutral (neutral = ok else need clutch disengaged)

 

[Blackfin]

Quickly perusing the wiring diagram supplied, it appears the power path for the starter motor follows this path:

• battery +ve, to
• starter relay; removable ATO/ATC 30A fuse, to
• ignition switch (key), to
• 7,5A ENGINE_STOP fuse, to
• engine stop-switch, to
• starter button on right switch-gear, to
• starter relay coil +ve terminal, to
• clutch switch, to
• ground

If the starter isn't turning when the button is pressed you should methodically walk through this series of parts to check for power at each stage:

• do you see VBAT at both the 30A fuse terminals in the starter-relay?
• with the key "on" do you see VBAT at the 7.5A ENGINE_STOP fuse?
• if you back-probe the starter relay socket, do you see VBAT at the Y/R wire when the starter button is pressed?

If everything is good at this point, you can:
* turn off the key; check for continuity between GND and the starter-relay terminals with the G/R wire(s)

If open, you can try backprobing the G/R wire with a test lead connected to GND. If the starter kicks with the key on/engine stop closed etc and the starter button pressed, you've got to find the open downstream of the starter relay coil.

If the Y/R wire isn't getting VBAT you need to find the open circuit upstream of the relay.

If all of that checks out, then check for VBAT at the starter motor positive terminal. If you have that, and the engine and starter grounds are good, perhaps the starter motor itself is open-circuit or something.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hey, guys.

Good update for you all. I checked everything and sorted the issue. Turns out one of the fuses was in the wrong place and so I've sorted the issue of no power.

Hit the button and the engine tried to turn over, quickly shut it off and hooked up the fuel line. Tried again and now have a strange sound coming from the starter motor. Video here

VID_20200908_195659.mp4

MP4 File

1drv.ms

I'm not sure what gear the engine is in and think that it might be that the engine is not in neutral. Would that be the reason or does it sound like the starter is on its way out?

 

[Blackfin]

Does that sound occur when you turn the key on and stop when you turn the key off? It doesn't sound like you're pressing the engine start button at the times corresponding to the start and stop of the noise.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hi @Blackfin. So basically I turn the key and no notice, I press the button and hear the click from the solenoid which I think you can hear on the video and then the noise starts. If I press the button once and release all you hear is the click but if I hold it for more than a second the noise starts until I let go.

One thing i did forget to mention is that the sprocket was turning the first time before i hooked up the fuel line.

 

[vt500]

Check the battery voltage while holding the start button.
if engine is not cranking, should see 12.4v or higher.

I believe a starter's output shaft/gear is not normally engaged to the engine. When we push the start button the starter output shaft
has to physically slide forward to engage the mating teeth on the engine. There is a stiff return spring.

If the battery voltage is too low (10V?) while the start button is pushed, then the starter shaft/gear may not slide far enough to engage the engine.
The starter spins but not the engine. The noise in the clip would be the starter spinning much faster than if it turned the engine.
However one would think the starter would not start turning until it engages the engine.... a hole in my reasoning?

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

OK, So have charged the battery fully in case it didn't come charged when i bought it. plugged everything in and it seems to be the issue, the battery is being drained super fast. see video here

VID_20200910_085940.mp4

MP4 File

1drv.ms

I called the company i got the battery from and told them what engine i had and the pointed me to the battery so im assuming its not powerful enough maybe?

12v 4.8ah with 250CCA (cold cranking amps)

 

[vt500]

The owners manual specifies a 8.6ah or a 9.1 ah. So a 4.8ah is very small, you will want something bigger for the road.
However I would expect it to start the bike in ideal warm conditions, when new, when fully charged, when the bike starts within a second or two.

In your video clip the battery is starting at 12.25 volts which is maybe 80% discharged.
It should read 12.8v after a full charge and then sitting overnight (voltage declines for a while after charging ends).
Either the battery charger has a problem or more likely the battery is bad.
On a positive note the bike did crank, sounded normal.

If you have a larger 12v battery in another motorcycle or atv, remove it and try using it.

It is normal for the battery voltage to drop by several volts while the engine is cranking, but not as much as in the video.
It returns to a normal voltage (over 12v) when cranking stops.

PS: if you used a large capacity automotive battery charger on the tiny 4.8ah battery you may have overheated it and damaged it.
If a mostly discharged lead-acid battery sits for weeks without charging, that permanently reduces the amount of energy it can hold.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hey all,

Update. I ordered a new battery and the issue of it sounding like its dying a slow and painful death is no longer there! I have found that i still have an ignition issue though as i have bought new plugs and checked the coils using a multimeter and the grounds are good but i have no spark.

I am going to check and make sure nothing is shorting out anywhere but is there anywhere you would recommend checking while i'm at it?

I dont have the fuel pump connected and have not bypassed the bank angle sensor, could this be a thing?

Thanks all

 

[vt500]

Looking at the service manual, the ignition coils get their power through the "main relay". Is it installed and the FI fuse installed?

The other sensor shown connected to the ignition is the CKP sensor. Guessing this provides the crankshaft timing information to the ecu.
If so, the ignition would not function if the sensor is not connected properly or its wires are damaged. The ecu would detect this problem.

Sounds like the bank angle sensor would turn the ignition off if the bike is leaned beyond 60 degrees (on the ground). However the manual indicates the ecu should detect an open wire to the sensor or a shorted sensor and report a bad sensor. I wouldn't expect the ignition to turn off due to that error and strand the rider - just guessing here.

 

[CBR TRIKE BUILDER]

Hi @vt500,

Yes the main relay and all fuses are connected and the CKP sensor is fully connected. The engine cranks and sounds as though it would fire if there was a spark.

Thanks