this is a new issue. just happened to me today. bike is new, under 2,000 miles.. no accidents etc... babied this thing. starting today, i was going to start it like i normally do with the kickstand down, bike in Neutral and me off of the bike (i start it while i put on gloves, helmet, zip jacket etc...) well, today it just turned over and over and over... so i tried again with the kickstand up.. and it started right up.
here is what i have tried.
-kickstand down, in N, clutch out = no start, just turns over and over
-kickstand up, in N, clutch out = starts right up
-kickstand down, in N with clutch pulled = starts right up
This is a good one. So strange. As an EE I'm fascinated by this problem. Sorry this is such a ramble...
I'm still waiting for my service manual to come in so I'm basing this on some guesswork and looking at some other Honda wiring diagrams. I'm looking at the diagram for a CBR1000RR. Other diagrams I've seen look basically the same with respect to the starter/neutral/clutch/sidestand relationships.
Can you try a couple of things (raise the rear tire using a stand if at all possible for safety):
a) Put the bike in gear. Try to start the bike with:
- clutch pulled, stand down
- clutch released, stand down
- clutch pulled, stand up
- clutch released, stand up
b) Does the neutral indicator on the dash function as expected?
Looking at the wiring diagrams, from what I can tell, as long as the bike is in neutral the starter will spin (with the kill-switch 'on' and the starter button depressed, of course.) This is allowed via the so-called "neutral diode" (which allows the neutral indicator in the cluster and the starter relay coil circuit to share the same neutral switch...) in the circuit which provides a current path from the starter relay coil to ground through the neutral switch.
If the bike is put in gear, that path is opened. Now you
need to have the sidestand up (switch closed)
and the clutch pulled (switch closed) to engage the starter.
I'm curious if these function as expected. With the bike in gear (i.e. not neutral) you
should need to have both the clutch pulled and the sidestand up for the starter to engage. (This is why it's important to put the back wheel in the air. If the circuit is goofy and starter turns and/or the engine starts unexpectedly during a test property damage or personal injury could occur...)
As far as I can see, the PCM has visibility into this loop in two places:
The first is signal "NLSW". It is an input to the PCM showing the level of the line between the starter relay coil -ve side and the clutch switch. This line will be at ~0V (low) when:
- the trans is in neutral, or
- the clutch is pulled and the sidestand is up
The second signal is called "SSTAND" and is a reflection of the state of the sidestand. This line will be 0V (low) when:
- the stand is down, or
- trans is in neutral and the clutch is pulled
My feeling is that the PCM needs to see a certain set of conditions on these two lines before it will enable the spark and/or fuel. Ideally, any state that allows the starter motor to operate should also allow spark and fuel.
The possible NLSW:SSTAND states are:
Case 1: 0:0
e.g. clutch pulled and sidestand up
- engine should crank and start
Case 2: 0:1
e.g. trans in neutral, clutch out and sidestand down
- engine should crank and start
Case 3: 1:0
e.g. trans not in neutral and clutch released and sidestand up
- engine should not crank but I think it should start (e.g. bump starting...)
Case 4: 1:1
e.g. trans not in neutral and clutch released and sidestand down
- engine should not crank nor start
So back to your symptoms & tests:
Test 1 ("
kickstand down, in N, clutch out = no start, just turns over and over"):
SIDESTAND: DOWN (switch open)
CLUTCH: RELEASED (switch open)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, NO START
Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:1 (case 2)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: FLOAT/HIGH (open circuit)
Test 2 ("
kickstand up, in N, clutch out = starts right up"):
SIDESTAND: UP (switch closed)
CLUTCH: RELEASED (switch open)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, START
Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:0 (case 1)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: LOW (sidestand switch closed)
Test 3 ("
kickstand down, in N with clutch pulled = starts right up"):
SIDESTAND: DOWN (switch open)
CLUTCH: PULLED (switch closed)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, START
Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:0 (case 1)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: LOW (closed clutch switch -> neutral diode -> neutral switch)
Your bike is properly executing on case '1' but not on case '2'. We don't know about 3 & 4 because those states weren't included in your testing.
This is very bizarre. :confused
It's like the PCM is not getting valid NLSW or SSTAND signals. I'd check the connections to the sidestand and clutch switches; make sure no wires are loose or have bad crimps.
If you have an ohmmeter see if the switches show open and closed when they're supposed to (i.e. clutch open when released, closed when clutch pulled -- sidestand open when down, closed when up).
