Honda CBR 500 Riders Forum banner

1 - 20 of 95 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
this is a new issue. just happened to me today. bike is new, under 2,000 miles.. no accidents etc... babied this thing. starting today, i was going to start it like i normally do with the kickstand down, bike in Neutral and me off of the bike (i start it while i put on gloves, helmet, zip jacket etc...) well, today it just turned over and over and over... so i tried again with the kickstand up.. and it started right up.

here is what i have tried.

-kickstand down, in N, clutch out = no start, just turns over and over
-kickstand up, in N, clutch out = starts right up
-kickstand down, in N with clutch pulled = starts right up

now, strange thing is.. once the bike is running, and i put it in N, and put the kickstand down, it still runs... if there was an issue in the kickstand switch, wouldn't this kill the bike in N (i know putting the kickstand down in gear kills the engine)

this is a NEW bike, i was hoping for a couple years of hassle free riding...

anyone else have this issue... any test or other things anyone recommends me try?
thanks for your time
pj
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Happened to my 2014 CB500F today - with all of 95 miles on the odometer. I read several posts crowing that Kawasaki had ECU recalls on the Ninja 300 (have a 2014 for mountain fun) . Honda has had the rocker arm retaining bolt recall on the 500s and it may not be their last. Good luck. I'm fortunate to have a terrific dealer close by.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
mine cranks over and over.. that is the weird thing.... strange that it will crank but not start... doesnt the kickstand safety switch disable the starter motor so it wont even crank over... (ie like if you were to try to start the bike with it in 1st gear and clutch out.. it wont even energize the starter motor...)
weird
i will call the dealer

p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
called my dealer (very unhelpful in terms of diagnosing it over the phone.. ) kinda sucks having issues with a new bike... thought by buying new i would be trouble free for at least a couple years.

soo, 240 miles i will have to go to get this sorted out.

today, was doing the same thing.. jiggled the kickstand switch, still nothing, tried switching into first and second, and back to N and try again, nothing. played with the kick stand by holding down the starter, and slowly moving the kickstand up, and it would be cranking the entire time, and then when i got to the switch point it would fire up...

decided to wax my bike...
and when finished i tried again, and it started right up, with the kickstand down and the bike in N... tried it about 5 times in a row, each time fired right up... ?? what gives?

p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,146 Posts
this is a new issue. just happened to me today. bike is new, under 2,000 miles.. no accidents etc... babied this thing. starting today, i was going to start it like i normally do with the kickstand down, bike in Neutral and me off of the bike (i start it while i put on gloves, helmet, zip jacket etc...) well, today it just turned over and over and over... so i tried again with the kickstand up.. and it started right up.

here is what i have tried.

-kickstand down, in N, clutch out = no start, just turns over and over
-kickstand up, in N, clutch out = starts right up
-kickstand down, in N with clutch pulled = starts right up
This is a good one. So strange. As an EE I'm fascinated by this problem. Sorry this is such a ramble...

I'm still waiting for my service manual to come in so I'm basing this on some guesswork and looking at some other Honda wiring diagrams. I'm looking at the diagram for a CBR1000RR. Other diagrams I've seen look basically the same with respect to the starter/neutral/clutch/sidestand relationships.

Can you try a couple of things (raise the rear tire using a stand if at all possible for safety):

a) Put the bike in gear. Try to start the bike with:

  • clutch pulled, stand down
  • clutch released, stand down
  • clutch pulled, stand up
  • clutch released, stand up


b) Does the neutral indicator on the dash function as expected?

Looking at the wiring diagrams, from what I can tell, as long as the bike is in neutral the starter will spin (with the kill-switch 'on' and the starter button depressed, of course.) This is allowed via the so-called "neutral diode" (which allows the neutral indicator in the cluster and the starter relay coil circuit to share the same neutral switch...) in the circuit which provides a current path from the starter relay coil to ground through the neutral switch.

If the bike is put in gear, that path is opened. Now you need to have the sidestand up (switch closed) and the clutch pulled (switch closed) to engage the starter.

I'm curious if these function as expected. With the bike in gear (i.e. not neutral) you should need to have both the clutch pulled and the sidestand up for the starter to engage. (This is why it's important to put the back wheel in the air. If the circuit is goofy and starter turns and/or the engine starts unexpectedly during a test property damage or personal injury could occur...)

As far as I can see, the PCM has visibility into this loop in two places:

The first is signal "NLSW". It is an input to the PCM showing the level of the line between the starter relay coil -ve side and the clutch switch. This line will be at ~0V (low) when:


  • the trans is in neutral, or
  • the clutch is pulled and the sidestand is up


The second signal is called "SSTAND" and is a reflection of the state of the sidestand. This line will be 0V (low) when:


  • the stand is down, or
  • trans is in neutral and the clutch is pulled


My feeling is that the PCM needs to see a certain set of conditions on these two lines before it will enable the spark and/or fuel. Ideally, any state that allows the starter motor to operate should also allow spark and fuel.

The possible NLSW:SSTAND states are:

Case 1: 0:0
e.g. clutch pulled and sidestand up
- engine should crank and start

Case 2: 0:1
e.g. trans in neutral, clutch out and sidestand down
- engine should crank and start

Case 3: 1:0
e.g. trans not in neutral and clutch released and sidestand up
- engine should not crank but I think it should start (e.g. bump starting...)

Case 4: 1:1
e.g. trans not in neutral and clutch released and sidestand down
- engine should not crank nor start


So back to your symptoms & tests:

Test 1 ("kickstand down, in N, clutch out = no start, just turns over and over"):
SIDESTAND: DOWN (switch open)
CLUTCH: RELEASED (switch open)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, NO START

Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:1 (case 2)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: FLOAT/HIGH (open circuit)


Test 2 ("kickstand up, in N, clutch out = starts right up"):
SIDESTAND: UP (switch closed)
CLUTCH: RELEASED (switch open)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, START

Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:0 (case 1)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: LOW (sidestand switch closed)


Test 3 ("kickstand down, in N with clutch pulled = starts right up"):
SIDESTAND: DOWN (switch open)
CLUTCH: PULLED (switch closed)
GEAR: NEUTRAL (switch closed)
CONDITION OBSERVED: CRANK, START

Expected (NLSW:SSTAND) state: 0:0 (case 1)
NLSW: LOW (neutral diode -> neutral switch)
SSTAND: LOW (closed clutch switch -> neutral diode -> neutral switch)


Your bike is properly executing on case '1' but not on case '2'. We don't know about 3 & 4 because those states weren't included in your testing.

This is very bizarre. :confused

It's like the PCM is not getting valid NLSW or SSTAND signals. I'd check the connections to the sidestand and clutch switches; make sure no wires are loose or have bad crimps.

If you have an ohmmeter see if the switches show open and closed when they're supposed to (i.e. clutch open when released, closed when clutch pulled -- sidestand open when down, closed when up).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,066 Posts
kinda sucks having issues with a new bike... thought by buying new i would be trouble free for at least a couple years.
p
Definitely sucks. Second time I started my bike with only 3 miles on the odometer the MIL light stayed on. It will go off if I shut it down and restart it again.

Happens about 50% of the time. Today it started flashing some code.

I also purchased from a dealer that is not close...what a pain.

I thought Honda's were supposed to be the most trouble free bikes? This thing is brand new!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,146 Posts
Definitely sucks. Second time I started my bike with only 3 miles on the odometer the MIL light stayed on. It will go off if I shut it down and restart it again.

Happens about 50% of the time. Today it started flashing some code.

I also purchased from a dealer that is not close...what a pain.

I thought Honda's were supposed to be the most trouble free bikes? This thing is brand new!
Do you know what code was blinking? Long flashes are 10s digits and short flashes are 1s digits.

I know what you mean about reliability. Mine had a bad starter relay that resulted in all sorts of nonsense, especially in the cluster (resetting, going blank, communications errors, MIL and ABS lights etc etc.) In neutral with the stand down I'd see 8 long blinks and 6 short blinks on the MIL indicating code "86" which was a serial communications error between the PCM and the cluster. The bad starter relay was causing intermittent power downstream of the relay.

The relay was replaced by the dealer under warranty at ~1200kms and I've had zero problems since then.

I am very interested to follow any thread where electrical **** is going wrong because I suspect I'll eventually be seeing these same problems myself...

:honda
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
blackfin, thanks for the detailed response...
kinda hard to do any tests right now and seeing as the the biking is working as it should.. starting right up now in N with kickstand down, clutch out. most likely this issue will return, and when it does i will run all the tests you suggested and report back...
curious about other peoples issues... and what they did to resolve it.
thanks again

pj
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,066 Posts
Do you know what code was blinking? Long flashes are 10s digits and short flashes are 1s digits.

I know what you mean about reliability. Mine had a bad starter relay that resulted in all sorts of nonsense, especially in the cluster (resetting, going blank, communications errors, MIL and ABS lights etc etc.) In neutral with the stand down I'd see 8 long blinks and 6 short blinks on the MIL indicating code "86" which was a serial communications error between the PCM and the cluster. The bad starter relay was causing intermittent power downstream of the relay.

The relay was replaced by the dealer under warranty at ~1200kms and I've had zero problems since then.

I am very interested to follow any thread where electrical **** is going wrong because I suspect I'll eventually be seeing these same problems myself...

:honda
I was following your troubles as well. Not sure about the code, will pay more attention next time. But it was a series of short flashes, guess they were about 1s.

I did notice that the starter did have a bit of a delay also this morning, like it struggled for a split second before starting. I wonder if I could have the same thing as you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
ok, happening on and off again (of course).. just was cranking over and over with the stand down and clutch out.. and i righted the bike up (sitting on the bike) and layed it back down on the stand (with a little force) and tried again, and has been firing right up ever since... (couple starts were a little hesitant.. aka, a couple extra revolutions than normal before it fired up)

question: does your kickstand have play in it? when you fully extend it as if to park it.. can you move it in and out? mine moves perpendicular to the bike.. i imagine that is normal. right?

thanks
pj
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
anyone else? it's interesting.. if it wont start, i right my bike up with me on it, and then set it down hard on the kickstand, and it will usually start right after that. obviously it is something in the kickstand switch... but i am curious if any others have 1/2" play in their kickstands. please reply
pj
 
1 - 20 of 95 Posts
Top